Cave Scanning

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Re: Cave Scanning

Post by sim.herrod »

landmeterbeuckx wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:56 am
Sometime you have to educate the client ;-)
Sometimes, when the client is happy to pay a premium for colour because there is a need colour, they get colour.
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Re: Cave Scanning

Post by Davinci »

smacl wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:16 am
landmeterbeuckx wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:10 am No expert but to me a cave is a grey or other dark environment. Why scan in color? You're gonna have that many shadows that a pointcloud is going to look ridiculous.
My 2cts.
Depends very much on the application and whether it includes a need for visualization and visual inspection. If not, then I agree colorization is a waste of time and storage space. With respect to shadows, there shouldn't be many in the colorized scan as the position scanned is directly visible to the scanner and camera in the same position and hence not in shadow. This is one reason why the colors on many colorized point clouds can look very flat. You do of course get colour mismatches on edges and distant objects, which is why powerlines and tree edges typically come out white, taking on cloud colour. Haven't been involved in much cave work but colour can be very important in tunnels, e.g. green and dark shades can indicate dampness / water penetration which may need further investigation for remedial works.

Doing some work a while back with "RJ" - Richard Johnson of 3DLS on mining tunnels which would have a lot in common with caves, also with RTC360 from memory. He could be worth contacting for recent experience and potential pitfalls. Tidying up reflection from water on the ground is also an issue to consider.
Yes water could be an issue. They are pumping it out now. These caves will be used for storage so color is not needed Mostly just need for volume measurements and how to account for water drainage. I like the mobile scanner idea since this cave is about 7 miles long, but customer owns a RTC.
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Re: Cave Scanning

Post by landmeterbeuckx »

Davinci wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:29 pm
smacl wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:16 am
landmeterbeuckx wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:10 am No expert but to me a cave is a grey or other dark environment. Why scan in color? You're gonna have that many shadows that a pointcloud is going to look ridiculous.
My 2cts.
Depends very much on the application and whether it includes a need for visualization and visual inspection. If not, then I agree colorization is a waste of time and storage space. With respect to shadows, there shouldn't be many in the colorized scan as the position scanned is directly visible to the scanner and camera in the same position and hence not in shadow. This is one reason why the colors on many colorized point clouds can look very flat. You do of course get colour mismatches on edges and distant objects, which is why powerlines and tree edges typically come out white, taking on cloud colour. Haven't been involved in much cave work but colour can be very important in tunnels, e.g. green and dark shades can indicate dampness / water penetration which may need further investigation for remedial works.

Doing some work a while back with "RJ" - Richard Johnson of 3DLS on mining tunnels which would have a lot in common with caves, also with RTC360 from memory. He could be worth contacting for recent experience and potential pitfalls. Tidying up reflection from water on the ground is also an issue to consider.
Yes water could be an issue. They are pumping it out now. These caves will be used for storage so color is not needed Mostly just need for volume measurements and how to account for water drainage. I like the mobile scanner idea since this cave is about 7 miles long, but customer owns a RTC.
As mentioned by Shane. RJ Johnson did a similar project with an rtc360 a while ago. He'll be able to give some pointers for sure.
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Re: Cave Scanning

Post by stevenramsey »

I suspect they would be photographing the caves with a DSLR as well and using that to color the mesh, thats how I would do it. the color from the scanner is just used to stitch the images
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Re: Cave Scanning

Post by gsisman »

Davinci wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:29 pm
smacl wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:16 am
landmeterbeuckx wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:10 am No expert but to me a cave is a grey or other dark environment. Why scan in color? You're gonna have that many shadows that a pointcloud is going to look ridiculous.
My 2cts.
Depends very much on the application and whether it includes a need for visualization and visual inspection. If not, then I agree colorization is a waste of time and storage space. With respect to shadows, there shouldn't be many in the colorized scan as the position scanned is directly visible to the scanner and camera in the same position and hence not in shadow. This is one reason why the colors on many colorized point clouds can look very flat. You do of course get colour mismatches on edges and distant objects, which is why powerlines and tree edges typically come out white, taking on cloud colour. Haven't been involved in much cave work but colour can be very important in tunnels, e.g. green and dark shades can indicate dampness / water penetration which may need further investigation for remedial works.

Doing some work a while back with "RJ" - Richard Johnson of 3DLS on mining tunnels which would have a lot in common with caves, also with RTC360 from memory. He could be worth contacting for recent experience and potential pitfalls. Tidying up reflection from water on the ground is also an issue to consider.
Yes water could be an issue. They are pumping it out now. These caves will be used for storage so color is not needed Mostly just need for volume measurements and how to account for water drainage. I like the mobile scanner idea since this cave is about 7 miles long, but customer owns a RTC.
I'm not sure about the RTC and the lack of plane surfaces and very similar topographical features. I think using a NavVis VLX would be a better deal. You would want to run 7 miles of travers with control points every 1500 feet or so according Marek , our NavVis contact out of NYC. pluse you have so much more control in getting into the nooks and crannies. We did a similar outside project with a NavVis provider out of NYC, though not near as long
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Re: Cave Scanning

Post by stutosney »

Davinci wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:29 pm
smacl wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:16 am
landmeterbeuckx wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:10 am No expert but to me a cave is a grey or other dark environment. Why scan in color? You're gonna have that many shadows that a pointcloud is going to look ridiculous.
My 2cts.
Depends very much on the application and whether it includes a need for visualization and visual inspection. If not, then I agree colorization is a waste of time and storage space. With respect to shadows, there shouldn't be many in the colorized scan as the position scanned is directly visible to the scanner and camera in the same position and hence not in shadow. This is one reason why the colors on many colorized point clouds can look very flat. You do of course get colour mismatches on edges and distant objects, which is why powerlines and tree edges typically come out white, taking on cloud colour. Haven't been involved in much cave work but colour can be very important in tunnels, e.g. green and dark shades can indicate dampness / water penetration which may need further investigation for remedial works.

Doing some work a while back with "RJ" - Richard Johnson of 3DLS on mining tunnels which would have a lot in common with caves, also with RTC360 from memory. He could be worth contacting for recent experience and potential pitfalls. Tidying up reflection from water on the ground is also an issue to consider.
Yes water could be an issue. They are pumping it out now. These caves will be used for storage so color is not needed Mostly just need for volume measurements and how to account for water drainage. I like the mobile scanner idea since this cave is about 7 miles long, but customer owns a RTC.

Wow, 7 miles! I would be more inclined to go mobile, using an RTC will either require a ton of control or would be a nightmare without any decent surfaces to align to.
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Re: Cave Scanning

Post by smacl »

stutosney wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 4:32 pmWow, 7 miles! I would be more inclined to go mobile, using an RTC will either require a ton of control or would be a nightmare without any decent surfaces to align to.
Agreed, over 7 miles the control could be as much work as scanning. That said, while you'd get a result much more easily from a mobile mapping system, the amount of drift and resultant absolute coordinates could be pretty terrible without decent external control. Is there more than one entrance to the cave system?
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Re: Cave Scanning

Post by landmeterbeuckx »

Or you could use a Riegl of course ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxVWNjO12Og
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Re: Cave Scanning

Post by Peyman Bashiri »

ZF5016 has internal LED for your color scans.
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Re: Cave Scanning

Post by santanafc »

Hello everyone!

We are monitoring the geostructural features of the cave using laser data. We had the idea after mapping the caves using Laser SLAM technology. Due to the size of the caves, we are using the laser with SLAM technology (Reading 43,200 p/s, accuracy from 1 to 3 cm), not the topographical laser.

As a result, we are having problems with the density of points to monitor the structures (cracks in the wall smaller than 1 cm) making it impossible to read the distances. Could you guide us on a method/equipment that could be used in small Caves (less than 10 m of horizontal projection and with a low ceiling), operating at a density of points smaller than 1 cm?
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