Need help in Buying (P40 vs RTC360 vs Faro S series)

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Re: Need help in Buying (P40 vs RTC360 vs Faro S series)

Post by Matt Young » Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:47 pm

I'm not a vendor and I certainly 'still don't work for Leica'.

Go for the RTC if you want a really great little scanner. Get a demo and ask all the questions.

I have used Leica software for over 15 years and really like using it.

I have used Faro Scene for just over a year... I really don't like using it.

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Re: Need help in Buying (P40 vs RTC360 vs Faro S series)

Post by sheartab » Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:10 pm

Its worth noting that if you wish to model any of the captured content with BIM software, FARO has the best single-source solution for recreating Building elements. Both Leica and FARO have the ability to generate steel and pipes, but FARO will allow you to model walls & floors, doors, & windows in BIM. Not sure if this is needed in your particular workflow, but in the A/E industry its extremely difficult to switch over to a Leica solution when FARO provides better post-scan documentation. I have semi-annual meetings with regional Leica resellers just to see if they have come any further. Leica hardware and registration software is extremely good- no question about that. If the registered scan is your end product then Leica might be a great solution. However If BIM is your end goal, I would give FARO a hard look.

Cheers!

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Re: Need help in Buying (P40 vs RTC360 vs Faro S series)

Post by Chidanand » Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:42 pm

JGlauser wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:37 am
Hello!

A little about us..

We've been using the P40 intensively since release and have so far completed approx 1,500 RTC scans out in the real world. I would claim some expertise with Leica scanners and registration software. We've only used Faro on a handful of projects and have never used their software to complete processing works, I can't advise on those.

To reiterate your requirements you are looking to complete LiDAR capture of site right from the beginning of the construction phase to end and possibly beyond on this project.

Positional Consistency

A key issue with scanning a site multiple times over an extended period of time is maintaining internal positional consistency of your data. You will need to reference each scan back to a reference network of control to achieve this.

The P40 stands alone in this regard. With all 3 scanners we can setup reference objects (black and white targets or moulded spheres), establish their positions using traditional survey methods and capture their positions passively with the laser scanner thus deriving the scanner position via resection back in the office. Whilst valid, this method has some limitations specifically the range at which these targets may be observed, If you can only shoot a target that is 30m away, should you really be using data captured at 100m+ from this solution? Probably not, depends on the tolerances. The P40 has on board routines that allow you physically observe, name and store target positions on site. Furthermore it has the ability to complete formal survey grade resections upon these targets on site rather than waiting until you're back in the office to find out something is wrong. These target can be observed at double the range of the Faro or RTC.

Furthermore, the P40 actually has a laser plummet and gives the user the ability to setup over primary survey control, record and store instrument heights and do formal backsights to other control points. Again, all errors and positional values are given to the user in the field.

In terms of positioning the scanner on site coordinates the P40 is the optimal solution by far.

The above workflows are considered bet and braces and are certainly not optimal if you are concerned with scans/hour however, they are the safest available.

Tilt compensation.

In short, the ability for your data to be level to gravity. If the data isn't level, slab levelness/flatness and verticality checks can't be conducted accurately. Each scanner employs some form of tilt sensing/tilt compensation. I don't know about Faros compensation solution, because they havnt been doing it very long. Leica have had real time dual axis compensation in their kit for >10 years. It works, If I had to complete an engineering grade column verticality or floor flatness survey (Which i have done a number if times), I would sleep better at night if I had used the P40 as opposed to the other two solutions every day of the week.

Size and weight, site workflow, ease of use, quality of life.

Faro or RTC every single time. The units are lighter, have a more intuitive user interface, fit in backpacks. Again, cant speak to Faro but using our RTC is an absolute breeze. The software wasn't consistent during pre release testing. It's brilliant now. The VIS system really works, the tablet software is intuitive and I am 100% satisfied with our purchase. The data quality destroys the BLK, its a different grade of kit all together. The data flow to and from the tablet is seamless, you can photograph specific assets and tag them to scans to add meta data to your pointclouds in the field.

Colour

The colour takes 6+ minutes to capture with the P40, 1 minute with RTC, probably very quick with the faro. The P40 colour takes time because its capturing 270ish images. The resolution of the final pano is much higher than anything else but is prohibitively time consuming to capture. My recommendation, dont use colour unless you have to, If you have to, make sure your client is paying for it.


There's lots more I could go into but it comes down to this:

The P40 give you the best chance of getting the best data but it is heavier and not as slick to use in the field.

I'm consulting currently with a faro owner in the UK who will be doing construction phase as builts of a huge set of structures as they go up. They're buying a P40 for the job.

Good luck,

You can get me on jglauser@the-scan-station.com if you want to talk more.
I am fortunate to be in this group where people share their knowledge and experience. Thanks for such a detailed explanation about critical points. I would be reaching out to you for more information.

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Re: Need help in Buying (P40 vs RTC360 vs Faro S series)

Post by steves01x » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:28 pm

One other point that may sway you towards Leica along with the previous posts is their service and the ability to send your instrument back to them each year for service/calibration certificate.

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Re: Need help in Buying (P40 vs RTC360 vs Faro S series)

Post by sheartab » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:02 pm

steves01x wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:28 pm
One other point that may sway you towards Leica along with the previous posts is their service and the ability to send your instrument back to them each year for service/calibration certificate.
FARO offers this as well (loaner scanner available). I am sending my scanner in next month. There is a charge for the FARO calibration, I can't speak for Leica's scanners on this point.

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Re: Need help in Buying (P40 vs RTC360 vs Faro S series)

Post by pburrows145 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:08 pm

JGlauser wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:37 am
Hello!

A little about us..

We've been using the P40 intensively since release and have so far completed approx 1,500 RTC scans out in the real world. I would claim some expertise with Leica scanners and registration software. We've only used Faro on a handful of projects and have never used their software to complete processing works, I can't advise on those.

To reiterate your requirements you are looking to complete LiDAR capture of site right from the beginning of the construction phase to end and possibly beyond on this project.

Positional Consistency

A key issue with scanning a site multiple times over an extended period of time is maintaining internal positional consistency of your data. You will need to reference each scan back to a reference network of control to achieve this.

The P40 stands alone in this regard. With all 3 scanners we can setup reference objects (black and white targets or moulded spheres), establish their positions using traditional survey methods and capture their positions passively with the laser scanner thus deriving the scanner position via resection back in the office. Whilst valid, this method has some limitations specifically the range at which these targets may be observed, If you can only shoot a target that is 30m away, should you really be using data captured at 100m+ from this solution? Probably not, depends on the tolerances. The P40 has on board routines that allow you physically observe, name and store target positions on site. Furthermore it has the ability to complete formal survey grade resections upon these targets on site rather than waiting until you're back in the office to find out something is wrong. These target can be observed at double the range of the Faro or RTC.

Furthermore, the P40 actually has a laser plummet and gives the user the ability to setup over primary survey control, record and store instrument heights and do formal backsights to other control points. Again, all errors and positional values are given to the user in the field.

In terms of positioning the scanner on site coordinates the P40 is the optimal solution by far.

The above workflows are considered bet and braces and are certainly not optimal if you are concerned with scans/hour however, they are the safest available.

Tilt compensation.

In short, the ability for your data to be level to gravity. If the data isn't level, slab levelness/flatness and verticality checks can't be conducted accurately. Each scanner employs some form of tilt sensing/tilt compensation. I don't know about Faros compensation solution, because they havnt been doing it very long. Leica have had real time dual axis compensation in their kit for >10 years. It works, If I had to complete an engineering grade column verticality or floor flatness survey (Which i have done a number if times), I would sleep better at night if I had used the P40 as opposed to the other two solutions every day of the week.

Size and weight, site workflow, ease of use, quality of life.

Faro or RTC every single time. The units are lighter, have a more intuitive user interface, fit in backpacks. Again, cant speak to Faro but using our RTC is an absolute breeze. The software wasn't consistent during pre release testing. It's brilliant now. The VIS system really works, the tablet software is intuitive and I am 100% satisfied with our purchase. The data quality destroys the BLK, its a different grade of kit all together. The data flow to and from the tablet is seamless, you can photograph specific assets and tag them to scans to add meta data to your pointclouds in the field.

Colour

The colour takes 6+ minutes to capture with the P40, 1 minute with RTC, probably very quick with the faro. The P40 colour takes time because its capturing 270ish images. The resolution of the final pano is much higher than anything else but is prohibitively time consuming to capture. My recommendation, dont use colour unless you have to, If you have to, make sure your client is paying for it.


There's lots more I could go into but it comes down to this:

The P40 give you the best chance of getting the best data but it is heavier and not as slick to use in the field.

I'm consulting currently with a faro owner in the UK who will be doing construction phase as builts of a huge set of structures as they go up. They're buying a P40 for the job.

Good luck,

You can get me on jglauser@the-scan-station.com if you want to talk more.
Great, candid, honest post Mr G! Thank you for sharing.

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Re: Need help in Buying (P40 vs RTC360 vs Faro S series)

Post by Matt Young » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:07 am

sheartab wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:10 pm
Its worth noting that if you wish to model any of the captured content with BIM software, FARO has the best single-source solution for recreating Building elements. Both Leica and FARO have the ability to generate steel and pipes, but FARO will allow you to model walls & floors, doors, & windows in BIM. Not sure if this is needed in your particular workflow, but in the A/E industry its extremely difficult to switch over to a Leica solution when FARO provides better post-scan documentation. I have semi-annual meetings with regional Leica resellers just to see if they have come any further. Leica hardware and registration software is extremely good- no question about that. If the registered scan is your end product then Leica might be a great solution. However If BIM is your end goal, I would give FARO a hard look.

Cheers!
It's true, Faro Pointsense has some tools for modelling in Revit. They don't really offer anything substantial that you cannot do without them though (in my opinion).

If money was not an issue, I would go for Cloudworx for Revit with Jetstream. I can't state enough, how fast this manages point clouds.

I do agree that Leica needs to update model. When I say update, I mean replace with something up to date. It hasn't changed an awful lot in the 15 years I have been using it.

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Re: Need help in Buying (P40 vs RTC360 vs Faro S series)

Post by Ioannis » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:42 pm

Leave it with me and I will get some new owners to post their thoughts.
[/quote]

Paul do you have any update for this please ? Anyone use RTC360 it so far to tell us thoughts and give us a feedback ?

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