trimble x7 vs rtc 360

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trimble x7 vs rtc 360

Post by scanengineer »

Anyone used both? Both have onsite registration which is a huge plus for me.
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Re: trimble x7 vs rtc 360

Post by Kruse »

mattfurches wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 9:01 pm Anyone used both? Both have onsite registration which is a huge plus for me.
I use an RTC 360 daily and demoed an X7 for a couple days. What are you interested in?
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Re: trimble x7 vs rtc 360

Post by scanengineer »

just curious how they compare. speed , accuracy and photo quality.
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Re: trimble x7 vs rtc 360

Post by sergiu.ceausu »

Hello,

Well RTC360 does not do complete onsite registration.
-The field software only do pre-registration. You will still need to work in the office.
-You need targets for the scanner to be horizontal. The IMU inside does a sort of levelling (18") but the errors are pretty big. The RTC does not have a compensator.
- 2.000.000 pts/s looks like a lot of speed, but also you would get a lot of data, difficult to process.
- Good distance. I think around 150m
- Good quality of the point cloud.
-The need to do a lot of stations at small intervals due to VIS tech. Is based on the 4 or 5 video camera that records the scanner when moved.

Trimble X7:
- does complete Auto-Reg in the field, without targets, based on the point cloud. That means you can do the stations at a greater distance between them. Also does colorizing and refine registration afterwards, all on the tablet in the field.
- Photo quality is enough for the vast majority of the projects. You don't have shadows caused by the parallax/
- Self-levelling within <3" with the help of a survey grade compensator. You don`t have tilted scans.
- 500.000 pts/s looks like a mediocre speed, but as an overall workflow, I would consider it faster. At the fastest setting you have 12 milion points.
- Maximum distance can be considered a disadvantage. Only 80m.
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Re: trimble x7 vs rtc 360

Post by LeicaUK_RC »

sergiu.ceausu wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 7:38 am Well RTC360 does not do complete onsite registration.
-The field software only does pre-registration. You will still need to work in the office.
If you fully complete a registration on-site what about, cleaning erroneous data, georeferencing, organising scans to sensible groups, Q&A and merging data sets? Even if this was available I still wouldn't choose that as a workflow as I strongly believe in checking and finalising data in the office - mistakes in misalignment can be costly if missed.
sergiu.ceausu wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 7:38 am -You need targets for the scanner to be horizontal. The IMU inside does a sort of levelling (18") but the errors are pretty big. The RTC does not have a compensator.
If you need high accuracy, survey-grade, real-time dual-axis compensation then choose either a ScanStation or TX8/6 as all others level the data with inclinometers or IMU so all are not technically levelled data.
sergiu.ceausu wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 7:38 am - 2.000.000 pts/s looks like a lot of speed, but also you would get a lot of data, difficult to process.
The speed of the scanner has nothing to do with the amount of data it collects?? If you need less data then choose a lower resolution setting on the device. If you do need a slower scanner (for some strange reason) then choose a different model.
sergiu.ceausu wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 7:38 am - Good distance. I think around 150m
The RTC360 has a 130m range.
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Re: trimble x7 vs rtc 360

Post by christopherbyrne18 »

Hi Folks,

I did a site test of the X7 to compare to our P40 & RTC360 a while back.

It's a decent prospect at the price point and can measure to georeferenced tragets in the field so resections are possible in the field which is unique at the price point for the X7.

However, its is a fair bit slower and the angular accuracy isn't great.
X7 Specs.jpg
Doesn't come bundleded with any office software and I'd never personally accept in the field registrations run on a tablet based largely on C2C processing. Office software is another €5k for Realworks or TBC.

Definately has a place for shorter range medium accuracy work at say 20 -30m work but won't replace a P40 for high accuracy work.

Overall a good piece of kit for the money if you know what you'll be using it for.

Cheers,

Chris
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Re: trimble x7 vs rtc 360

Post by Jamesrye »

I have used both. Eventually, we went with the RTC360.

But the X7 was extremely tempting, it was just the range that was limiting for us. If I was just doing building surveys then I am not sure which scanner I would choose. The RTC has nicer images.

But - the X7's on site registration was FANTASTIC - way, way better than FIELD360. And yes, we checked it in Cyclone Core afterwards, but it was brilliant. Processing time was much faster. It just worked, and was great on a large building survey. You can just export the e.57 afterwards and check it against your control points.

Better still is the ability to record targets at range. We found the ability to record targets on site to be very advantageous.

Manufacturers write about speed and resolution. If you are doing a building survey, the speed and point density of the X7 is fine. And it is easier to cope with the smaller point cloud. At the time I did a direct comparison to C10 data and found the quality to be comparable (range noise etc...).

Leica's software is improving (import times are massively improved) and the recent firmware update solves many of the level issues that many users were having. But REG360 still lacks features and is buggy.

Bottom line: Try them both and see which works for you. Like I say, the range was the limiting factor for us and the imagery takes longer and is not as good (my opinion). FWIW - manufacturers claims about range are based on certain factors like albedo, so check that out for yourself too! because the spec sheets can be misleading.
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Re: trimble x7 vs rtc 360

Post by steves01x »

They are both good. Demo the Trimble but had a RTC on hire on a large job with P40 and that sold us it. Its range drops to 60m on high resolution setting though which maybe an issue on some jobs if you cant just move the scanner closer!

I also usually avoid any on site reg aka placing/connecting 2 scans unless its a small job i can lay the tablet down on near by etc as i find it slows me down.

The RTC on a measured building survey is a lot quicker than the Trimble when you get inside and have smaller spaces with loads of set ups etc.

We are also Cyclone Core users so moving to another package wasnt really going to happen and cant see it happening any time soon.

Another handy thing for Leica here in UK is if you need to hire additional kit its really easy do so with Leica being stocked by Sunbelt, SCCS etc and it fits straight in to the work flow.

Its a case of which scanner and software workflow suits you and your jobs!?
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Re: trimble x7 vs rtc 360

Post by Kruse »

For background and an understanding of my perspective and what we need out of a scanner, working on the GC side of things, scanning is a very critical aspect of every project and with that one of our biggest concerns is the turn around time and accuracy on scanning and verifying that information against our BIM models. Specifically around concrete deck placements when there are over 2,000 individual embeds, hangers, strut, sleeves, bolts, PT Cables, floor boxes, edge form, blockouts, etc. in every deck placement and we're placing 1 or 2 of these decks a week. We use scanners throughout the life of a building's construction, but concrete placements are most critical, then steel as-builts, FF/FL testing of decks, as-built of installed MEPF against BIM Models, close in documentation for installed work getting covered up by drywall.... A few applications of a typical project of ours.

Every scanner has its place and use case, but for us as a fast paced GC, the X7 was not the right fit. A few of my key take aways and comparisons between the X7 and RTC are as follows:

1. SPEED & FIELD CAPTURE - The scanning speeds are pretty drastic between the two, especially when you use high sensitivity or high quality HDR images with the X7. Our typical datasets usually have around 100 setups and all setups need imagery captured. With the X7, the fastest time you can scan in standard mode with the fast images 3 minutes 10 seconds from starting the first scan to starting the second scan. There's a self calibration at the beginning of each setup which takes ~30 seconds (can't remember if that can be turned off). As for my RTC, you're looking at 1 minute 37 seconds from starting the first scan to starting the second (High Tilt Accuracy mode turned off, Low Density, Images on).

As for the overall turnaround on scanning, registration, to getting the final deliverable exported and ready for review, the RTC 360 and Register 360 workflow was still much faster overall. With the X7 and Perspective, you need to refine the project, process the images, and then export the file onto the internal storage. While the registration aspect can be done in the field, the whole workflow to get a deliverable out of Perspective and the tablet was quite a bit slower compared to the RTC, even on very small datasets less than 10 setups.
X7 scan speeds and settings.jpg
X7 comparison - 100 setups and different settings.jpg
2. Geo-Referencing in the Field and On Site Registration - RTC and the Field 360 app allow a pre-registration/alignment to get scans in the approximate location. Also allows creating filters for cleaning points when imported into Register 360. New update also allows adding the Lidar scans from an iPad Pro and attached to the overall point cloud to fill in data not captured from a setup. The key though is Field 360 does all the alignment in the field and creates all your links so when importing in the office and finalizing the registration, there is minimal work and links created to be done to get an accurate point cloud after importing.

The X7 and the Perspective app on the tablet does a more complete registration when compared to the Field 360 app, but it lacks a lot of features to ensure accuracy across large/complex datasets. With that, it's only C2C registration, and that's not necessarily a deal breaker, but it only imports a % of the setup's point cloud to be used for the C2C registration (I think it only loads 1M points per setup for C2C). Perspective will attempt to add cross links between setups when you finalize (Trimble calls it Refinement), but you don't have control of those links created. Another feature missing is the ability to clean the point cloud or delete points in Perspective. i.e. any points captured are used in the registration with no way to avoid using the moving points or reflections through glass when you should be able to delete those to help the C2C registration.

Perspective allows the ability to tie a scan dataset to control out in the field which was the most appealing aspect, but comparing those scans to a model on the tablet in the field was pretty clunky and difficult, especially when you have large BIM models (current project is ~980,000 SF). I think it was Trimble Field Link that allowed the ability to scan, register, and align to the model for viewing. The whole viewing the scan's overlaid with the model in the field seems appealing, but in practice, it's not that great due to the size and complexity of some systems we're scanning. For detailed review, it really needs to be done on a proper computer and software, not only that, but when issues are found, they need to be sent back to trades to notify. Using the Trimble tablet and Field link will give you an idea of some systems and how they compare to a BIM Model, but cannot be used to any large scale operations from our experience and use case. The ability to scan decks in the field and generate elevation heat maps while you're there is a very nice feature though!

For those that say they don't need to register/verify any of the X7 scan data back in the office using either TBC or RealWorks are kidding themselves and are guaranteeing that the registration will not be as tight as possible. With us playing with one for a little while (even our project that currently owns one), the registration results from Perspective were not great. In my testing of a simple steel canopy structure, the 3 scans captured were all 20' from each other, yet the slices through the point cloud after Refinement were showing almost 1/2" of error! We had to bring the scans into TBC and our Trimble Rep had to reprocess them to get the error down 1/4"-3/8". All of that error was verified by pulling a slice through a smooth concrete column maybe 25' from all the setups.

3. SCAN QUALITY - For us and our needs on a job, the scans need to provide relatively low noise and be able to clearly show when scanned objects do not align with the BIM Models. I'm not expecting either of these scanners to provide the same quality compared to a P40, but when comparing the two scanners, the RTC quality/noise was considerably better in my opinion.
X7 Single Scan Noise on Concrete Column.jpg
RTC 360 - Single Setup Noise on Concrete Column.jpg
4. IMAGE QUALITY - The default images and how they are processed by their respective softwares were quite different. The RTC is well known for having washed out colors in the images. The X7 by contrast had extremely saturated images which does make the point cloud look pretty decent. I don't recall the ability to edit images in any of the Trimble software, but I would assume TBC or RealWorks could all that function in some way. Register 360 does have some basic photo editing tools as well as an option to add blurring (requirement for a few Govt. jobs). You can also export the images, edit in a 3rd party software like Lightroom, and reimport to then also re-colorize the point cloud which I do for maybe 1/3 of the datasets. Editing in a 3rd party software works really well, doesn't add a whole lot of time to the workflow and I can get some really nice looking photos at that point. The RTC does have a noticeably sharper images or high resolution compared to the X7 when viewing/comparing the two datasets back in the office. Considering we use the RTC for close in documentation before we cover up walls/ceilings with drywall, the sharper images and speed of the HDR capture is a big aspect for us to consider. There are some Parallax issues with the RTC's camera being offset, which is apparent when photographing open stud walls, but it's never been an issue preventing us from utilizing the images for as-built documentation. The X7 also has offset cameras, but due to them being closer to the center of the scanner, the Parallax isn't as bad.

5. COST - We purchase scanners for 3 year durations with everything paid up front (when possible) and for an X7 kit, Perspective, and RealWorks, it would have been ~$62K. For the RTC kit, Register 360, CloudWorx Ultimate, and Publisher Pro (I think all of that is the AEC bundle), it was ~$104K. Sure the upfront costs for the RTC is more, but the speed of it allows us to capture far more than double that of the X7. Considering we have almost 20,000 scans on my current project to date (last 1.5 years) and all the issues we have been able to find, fix, and save money on have made up for the cost difference by a factor of 10, if not more.


Like I mentioned, every scanner has its place and best use cases. For our needs on a typical job site, the X7 didn't fit. Is the X7 a bad scanner, no, not at all. The RTC simply gave us what we needed out of a scanner. Just my 2 Cents after testing one and comparing to our typical use cases and workflows.
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Re: trimble x7 vs rtc 360

Post by scanengineer »

Wow thanks for the detailed review. That answers pretty much all of my questions!
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