Register 360 Performance degradation and rendering issues

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badam
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Register 360 Performance degradation and rendering issues

Post by badam »

Hi guys!

We decided not to instal 2021.0 / 2021.1.0 / 2021.1.1 (so any release from this year) in our production machines. Mainly because we have issues with different things, most of them are solved by 2021.1.1 but new bugs get released as well with this latest release.

For example they solved the sitemap recentering issues after link modification/creation/deletion which is great. But in the process of solving it they removed the recentering feature when you are in a setup cloud and you go to top view, and that is sometimes can cause issues, you need to zoom out/zoom in, or you don't know at all where you are you should zoom in/out...

Other things what i encountered is that the renderer got some rewrite (probably this causes all the issues in 2021 releases they didn't have enough time to make it right as the logo says...), and that is what prevents us to install it. But we payed for it in form of the CCP subscription... And I feel like We didn't get anything for our money, just annoying hours of testing and bug reporting... (Are we customers alpha/beta testers?)

Firstly I wanna lay out how i tested these degradation, i know that these machines are not the best ones, but pretty same thats why i used those two, for better comparisons, because you cannot open the same project in both programs (2021.x.x is not backward compatible), i used two pretty similar projects of our own.

machine 1:
-ryzen 2400G
-APU (register 360 just don't use too much gpu...)
-64GB ram (4x16 2133Mhz (not the best, but i don't see any memory intensive in these task, and that is a problem as well i think reg360 just don't use much memory at all of course that is why we don't need to save anything which is good thing. But for cache purposes there might be a performance gain.))
-same storage type
-Register360 version: 2021.1.1
-project size: 2003 setup, 4k-5k hdr images from rtc360 or blk360. link count: 4385, sitemap count:9, point count: 22 120 831 172


machine 2:
-ryzen 2400G
-APU
-32GB ram (2x16 2133Mhz)
-same storage type
-Register360 2020.1
-project size: 1927 setup, 4k-5k hdr images from rtc360 or blk360, link count: 4547, sitemap count: 12 , point count: 19 037 172 022

Performance degradation in 2021.x.x compared to 2020.1 and earlier versions:
-Trueslicer rendering (it renders the trueslicer unusable)
-sitemap change (not that big)
-change of point colors (in sitemap view not that big degradation)

Our issues related to rendering... (these are the worst issues, because they cannot be replicated by a set of steps just happens and in a lot of times i just used few hours after each release and came across with them several times... It makes them harder to debug and solve)
-if you move around on the sitemap sometimes just reload everything... (not critical but annoying, because that happens a lot)
-if you move around on the sitemap sometimes it just crash something, and you can only see the clouds, links when you zoom in really close. (that renders to unusable state and should reopen application)
-sometimes the controls are just not working... but the application works fine, but you cannot move, translate the clouds/views... (needs reopen)

If you encounter similar or other issues then do not hesitate to post it here. Maybe you could rate our issues which is the worst for your use cases...

Later i will attach some videos about the issues

PS: here are the videos https://login.futureplans.hu/~AKIM9
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Re: Register 360 Performance degradation and rendering issues

Post by Carbix »

Reg360 does use a lot of GPU just not the part your computer reporting. Video memory and properly supported OpenGL/CL support. Find a used AMD 5700w with 8gb of video memory...
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Re: Register 360 Performance degradation and rendering issues

Post by badam »

Carbix wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:46 pm Reg360 does use a lot of GPU just not the part your computer reporting. Video memory and properly supported OpenGL/CL support. Find a used AMD 5700w with 8gb of video memory...
It doesn't make much difference, we have another machine which our main point cloud editing machine (RX570 8gb, r9 3900x, 128GB ram), but as i was said it is a test to compare apple to apple and you can see that, it can run perfectly fine on 2020.1 and not in 2021.1

Windows report VRAM usage and yes i can see that sometimes it uses more than it usual, but not in the trueslicer case... ( as a matter of fact i saw that sometimes just freeze the whole application because of that, but not in the showed issues (trueslicer, rendering issues), but i didn't mentioned that as an issue, because i know the cause of that)

We have been using reg 360 since 1.4 and i know for sure the reg 360 is not using to much compared to other engineering application like tekla, archicad, revit.
And i admire that i can use reg360 over RDP just like i would sit in front of the local machine. I don't understand why they say that in every release note that it is not working over remote desktop... Ok you cannot start the application if you don't have Opengl but if you hav you are good to go... nvidia GTX cards unusable, you must use AMD, or nvidia quadro

We have several projects over 1500 setup in previous releases and we didn't have any issues. We had issues with importing setups after around 2000 (not exact number) setup and that we reported, earlier.

And I'm confident enough that these issues are not hardware related...

But if you can show me a real word difference between a W5700, quadro over other cards. For example speed in import of setup, or other things?
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Re: Register 360 Performance degradation and rendering issues

Post by Carbix »

speed on import I don't think will be affected too much by a video card. But 100% when navigating and registering. I just went from a 1080Ti to a 6900xt and everything runs like butter from my Mix of RTC data.

As for project size issues, it's my understanding that you're going to need to use Cyclone Core. Reg360 for me has never been reliable after 800 setups. I know in the past this has been from hard driver restrictions. But even after that has been solved I try and stay away from worlds with over 800 setups. That said make sure your temp file can handle just as much as your main file area and keep them off the same drive. Sometimes this can have more to do with file management architecture and less to do with overall system performance.

I run NVMe 980pro's 3x2Tb 1x500gb. Raw/Export, Project Drive and Scratch/temp each get their own drive. The most recent build is a 3960x ripper 256gb ram, 6900xt, drives mentioned above via an Asus Zenith II that has 10gb networking.
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Re: Register 360 Performance degradation and rendering issues

Post by badam »

what i see from the task manager if you move around in the sitemap zooming/etc the cpu is what gets the most load.

we usualy do scan to bim so most of the setups are small res on rtc and middle res on blk.

in one of the topic you mentioned an 800 setup pointcloud is ~800gb... this exact point cloud is around ~700GB. so it is smaller. however it has 2003 setup. and this is like the 10th project which are bigger than 1500 setup. And started finished in reg360...

this is what everybody says use core but we don't want to. I just don't understand how you guys handle this. import the project to core store it two times it takes time to finalize/recheck the registration in core... It is just not worth it. And as you can see in 2020.1 it works Ok. and that version only supported oficially 500 setup.


As i experienced temp is not used during everyday task (registration/cleaning/import), at least not much (few gb/mb). Temp is only used during export that is when you need huge temp area. But in the 2021.1.1 release ther is a function to not create finalized point cloud and with that disabled and e57 structured separated export the temp usage is minimal.

we always import/export from/to NAS. during import this is not an issue because cpu is always in full load. (But we are using balanced it is more stable we had issues when the rtc project contained small and high res setups it lets too much thread (6 thread) and the memory (128) is used up and started to swap.) so that is why we keep it on balance. which i think allows 3 thread but the import of a single cloud is faster this way than in 6 thread mode...
i'd love to know that what average import time do you have i have created an excel all of our imports from the log files and based on that the average import time with 4k-5k imagery rtc small res point cloud takes around 150-250s in 2020.1.
times_rev2.xlsx
2 tb is just small for projects we are currently working on a project which required 6 different reg360 project. currently it has 6700 setup it will be referenced to each other.
it is around 5 tb.

i think an 800 setup project is butter smooth from network as well (and i'm only talking about 1GBit).. the only downside to work from nas is the optimization speed but we disabled the automatic optimization and only optimize the cloud when we need it...

How you archive projects? what happens if you made a mistake and you need to reopen an old/recently finished project? do you disconnect it from the library or just delete the project and fast archive?
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Re: Register 360 Performance degradation and rendering issues

Post by daniel.jansson »

We have noticed a lot of performance issues overall and especially with the rendering as you say. It is all smooth but it just loads sooo slowly now. The buffering looks nice and sounds like a good idea, but it is just so inaccurate in displaying the points that it is not even worth looking at at this stage. Goes for truslicer as well as other views, which makes truslicer really ineffective to use.

There are other weird "artifacts" around the rendering with points flashing, hiding completely until you move, loading the "wrong" setups before your actual viewpoint, etc. which is just annoying.

I haven't noticed any difference either with the GPU. I have an RTX4000 so it is a laptop, but nothing is maxed out, and the GPU is the least stressed part. Compared to our workstation I can't really see a difference either.

I have also noticed that the CPU is maxing out even when just panning in the sitemap view for small projects, but only in some computers.

The import times are and have always been pretty bad I think. But in this latest release, we are getting crazy numbers in the log files, 1600 seconds/setup. I am not sure if it could have something to do with the new distance filter during import that is highly ineffective.

I've also used worse PCs and laptops before in earlier versions which handles things better than what I can now. Hopefully, the new rendering is a clever new feature that was a bit rushed for release and will be fixed or changed back until it is fixed. I just hope this isn't a new rendering platform for the rest of the Cyclone products, at least not until it is fully working.
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Re: Register 360 Performance degradation and rendering issues

Post by badam »

I just really hope that this is not caused by the different things which was rushed to implement, and sometimes just useless features...

- hide/show setups (i cannot see any real world use case for that, but please if you know one that fire me...)
- undo/redo button (we were completely fine without that functionality in the last 3-4 years and it does almost nothing.)

And i also reported them that this rendering should be reverted back to how it were in 2020.1 and earlier versions. It was working perfectly fine.

They wanted to release soo much this year (just see the release note it is like 20 page with new feature half of them are useless or not finished or not convenient to use at all), but end up with total failure in the most basic stuffs (target issue, recentering issue several times, rendering glitches, performance degradation,etc...).

The import times are and have always been pretty bad I think. But in this latest release, we are getting crazy numbers in the log files, 1600 seconds/setup. I am not sure if it could have something to do with the new distance filter during import that is highly ineffective.
how many ram do you have, doesn't it start to overflow and do swapping? As i wrote earlier balance is faster or not that much slower but uses way less resources, and more stable... I've seen 1500-2000 seconds with fast (usually high res, rtc360 where memory issues can arise) but with balance it is faster to import 1 setup but has less multithreading.
I think the new "compressed" 40 % "better" compression can have performance implication during import, if you are using rtc360...
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Re: Register 360 Performance degradation and rendering issues

Post by pburrows145 »

daniel.jansson wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:11 am We have noticed a lot of performance issues overall and especially with the rendering as you say. It is all smooth but it just loads sooo slowly now. The buffering looks nice and sounds like a good idea, but it is just so inaccurate in displaying the points that it is not even worth looking at at this stage. Goes for truslicer as well as other views, which makes truslicer really ineffective to use.

There are other weird "artifacts" around the rendering with points flashing, hiding completely until you move, loading the "wrong" setups before your actual viewpoint, etc. which is just annoying.

I haven't noticed any difference either with the GPU. I have an RTX4000 so it is a laptop, but nothing is maxed out, and the GPU is the least stressed part. Compared to our workstation I can't really see a difference either.

I have also noticed that the CPU is maxing out even when just panning in the sitemap view for small projects, but only in some computers.

The import times are and have always been pretty bad I think. But in this latest release, we are getting crazy numbers in the log files, 1600 seconds/setup. I am not sure if it could have something to do with the new distance filter during import that is highly ineffective.

I've also used worse PCs and laptops before in earlier versions which handles things better than what I can now. Hopefully, the new rendering is a clever new feature that was a bit rushed for release and will be fixed or changed back until it is fixed. I just hope this isn't a new rendering platform for the rest of the Cyclone products, at least not until it is fully working.
Seemingly IT issues...? I have seen huge improvements in the latest versions using my 3 year old laptop (64GM ram, twin SSD's, Quad core XEON, 16gb VRAM on P4000). Please talk to local support and log all cases, this allows San Ramon to see all issues and address them accordingly. Thanks!
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Re: Register 360 Performance degradation and rendering issues

Post by pburrows145 »

badam wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:02 am I just really hope that this is not caused by the different things which was rushed to implement, and sometimes just useless features...

- hide/show setups (i cannot see any real world use case for that, but please if you know one that fire me...)
- undo/redo button (we were completely fine without that functionality in the last 3-4 years and it does almost nothing.)

And i also reported them that this rendering should be reverted back to how it were in 2020.1 and earlier versions. It was working perfectly fine.

They wanted to release soo much this year (just see the release note it is like 20 page with new feature half of them are useless or not finished or not convenient to use at all), but end up with total failure in the most basic stuffs (target issue, recentering issue several times, rendering glitches, performance degradation,etc...).

The import times are and have always been pretty bad I think. But in this latest release, we are getting crazy numbers in the log files, 1600 seconds/setup. I am not sure if it could have something to do with the new distance filter during import that is highly ineffective.
how many ram do you have, doesn't it start to overflow and do swapping? As i wrote earlier balance is faster or not that much slower but uses way less resources, and more stable... I've seen 1500-2000 seconds with fast (usually high res, rtc360 where memory issues can arise) but with balance it is faster to import 1 setup but has less multithreading.
I think the new "compressed" 40 % "better" compression can have performance implication during import, if you are using rtc360...
What is useless to you Adam might have been on someone else's wish list forever - no one can please everyone, sadly - not even Leica! ;)

I would refer to other users who are seemingly having a good experience with the new release, myself included, and ensure your IT is running as efficiently as possible.

Please continue to log your issues directly with the support team, as these are seen directly by the dev QA team in San Ramon.

Thanks for the feedback - and sorry you are not seeing the improvements you desire.

PS: 100% check with your IT team because I am seeing vastly improved imports for RTC360 data with colour now, even with 5K imagery - and without imagery...WOW! :ugeek:
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Re: Register 360 Performance degradation and rendering issues

Post by badam »

PS: 100% check with your IT team because I am seeing vastly improved imports for RTC360 data with colour now, even with 5K imagery - and without imagery...WOW! :ugeek:
But If you says so our IT structure is so bad could you tell me what average import times do you have? With any machine you want to select. 4k imagery at least and small/medium RTC setups (or if you don't have a script/program to get that data send me the log files what you have, i'll run our script to extract these informations.). I'll gladly accept your response if it is so much better than ours (dooubt it will be so much different). I shared ours in one of the post. And those are the completelly not recommended solution because those are imported from NAS, and through Remote Desktop. But I'll not complain about the import speed until it is not longer than a night. So our pain treshold in import (time) is very high... We have 12-14 hours to get the setups in whis is enough for about 280 setup RTC360 small 4k.

I haven't tried to import setup to 2021 because we cannot use that currently, I shared what we have in 2020.1 and earlier releases... And as i told I've seen slow import but it was because the reg360 assigned too much thread (software issue, but it is optional so i didn't make any complaints about that, i just notified our sales rep to be aware of that possibility when he recomemend that function to others) and it started to swap, and that was the issue, that is why we switched back from fast import to balanced... (especially after when we got 128GB ram before that it was assigned thread numbers safely..)

Without color it was fast earlier 50-60s/setup... Unfortunatelly (or not) we most of the time use coloured cloud (and full res images, cannot use the adaptive, images)... The import later function i wouldn't talk about that, but of course if somebody need that there it is, it is "optional" and this is the key...

Not just force (project integrity check, report generation before hit publish (i didn't want to make modification in the report function just to be able to skip that part before publishing, instead you guys fixed a so much harder part (filter out empty link tables) of the report generation)) everybody what is not required, at all.
Last edited by badam on Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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