RIEGL VZ600i

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landmeterbeuckx
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Re: RIEGL VZ600i

Post by landmeterbeuckx »

JLarson wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 4:03 pm With only a quick look, it looks like a nice scanner, but certainly not revolutionary, or "way out in front of it's competitors". The only thing I see that is an improvement over competitors is capturing photography and scan concurrently, cutting capture time down from 1'22" on an RTC360 to 30" at the same resolution and image capture. Yes, it's more than twice as fast, but for someone who started scanning doing 1.5 hour long scans, we're really slicing the pie thin here, where the reduction in scan time is at the point of diminishing returns.

A big issue for me is that it still has Riegl's limited 105° vertical field of view, that does not capture features directly above the scanner and leaves a huge hole beneath. For use in the building market where you are often working in tight, confined areas, this is a huge limitation in my mind. I'm sure there are technical design issues at work here, but it seems to me like Riegl started down this road a long time ago and has stubbornly decided that it's not an issue.
The current vz400i can already take pictures while scanning for 3 years now.
Registering in the instrument is already possible for 5 years. They just went further with development and it works better than at the start.
Why do you think it is fast. Just because they don't have to spin like a Faro or an etc. The fov is no problem because you can do easily 2 more positions while another scanner is still at it. I have scanned all sports of things for more then 5 years with my vz400i and never had any issues with this.
People who moan about this have never scanned with a Riegl. They only read the specs.
Riegl is way ahead with their kits compared to other brands.
I've earned a ton with this kit because of it's simplicity and excellent software.
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Re: RIEGL VZ600i

Post by JLarson »

I'm glad you've had success with Riegl, as have I in the past. I'm not someone who is particularly brand loyal, or just moans online based on specs. I believe in finding the best tool for the job. There is no such thing as a perfect scanner, software, etc. Otherwise this forum, or the yearly vendor update cycle wouldn't exist.

I don't agree with the idea that's its not an issue because you can just do another overlapping scan. In my view and experience, it is often better to reduce the number of scans to a minimum while maintaining the required coverage and densities. Every additional setup can raise issues other than just the time required: every setup has potential for error to creep into your data set (vibration, bad setup, registration error, etc.), adds data file size, time to download / process, etc. I also like to keep things simple for my field folks. The fewer things they need to think about when selecting scan locations the better. It's easier for them to get trained up, and there isn't as much of a question in the field that they have the needed coverage.
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Re: RIEGL VZ600i

Post by smacl »

JLarson wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 4:59 pmI don't agree with the idea that's its not an issue because you can just do another overlapping scan. In my view and experience, it is often better to reduce the number of scans to a minimum while maintaining the required coverage and densities. Every additional setup can raise issues other than just the time required: every setup has potential for error to creep into your data set (vibration, bad setup, registration error, etc.), adds data file size, time to download / process, etc. I also like to keep things simple for my field folks. The fewer things they need to think about when selecting scan locations the better. It's easier for them to get trained up, and there isn't as much of a question in the field that they have the needed coverage.
Agreed. One of the biggest headaches for many users with the release of the RTC360 was the hugely increased file sizes. If you're going to use extra setups to compensate for limits in the FOV you really need something like the NavVis post processing that rationalizes the total number of points by surface area. I do still like the look of this scanner though and rate Riegl kit very highly.
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Re: RIEGL VZ600i

Post by tnguyen »

dhirota wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 7:18 am In case you have not seen the new Riegl VZ600i


VZ600i.jpg


youtu.be/CU5Q7DRUSd0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU5Q7DRUSd0
Thank you @dhirota for sharing this information. We are excited to bring the next generation RIEGL VZ-i series to the market. The #VZ-600i has unmatched specifications (2.2Hhz, 420 line/sec), true onboard automatic registration, and performances (28sec scan time, 6mm@10m), I am confident the VZ-600i will be a stable workhorse. The VZ-600i more than just a static scanner system. If you want to know what I mean, please join our webinar on Oct. 25th. Registration link = https://attendee.gotowebinar.com/regist ... 5191451662
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Re: RIEGL VZ600i

Post by landmeterbeuckx »

JLarson wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 4:59 pm I'm glad you've had success with Riegl, as have I in the past. I'm not someone who is particularly brand loyal, or just moans online based on specs. I believe in finding the best tool for the job. There is no such thing as a perfect scanner, software, etc. Otherwise this forum, or the yearly vendor update cycle wouldn't exist.

I don't agree with the idea that's its not an issue because you can just do another overlapping scan. In my view and experience, it is often better to reduce the number of scans to a minimum while maintaining the required coverage and densities. Every additional setup can raise issues other than just the time required: every setup has potential for error to creep into your data set (vibration, bad setup, registration error, etc.), adds data file size, time to download / process, etc. I also like to keep things simple for my field folks. The fewer things they need to think about when selecting scan locations the better. It's easier for them to get trained up, and there isn't as much of a question in the field that they have the needed coverage.
I don't see the problem. When you scan a room with 2 windows, you scan the treshold and 2 scans in the room minimum so you see the 2 frames in full. By this you already have the ceiling covered.

If i read correctly you'd rather have 50 scans in a project than 60 which would be better to have all covered, If it is possible with only 50 scans. I've done projects with a few thousand scans and never had any issues. More scans = more reliable data imho.

A Riegl is not sensitive to vibration as other scanners.
I'm brand loyal, nothing wrong with that. Workflows stay the same as is the software.
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Re: RIEGL VZ600i

Post by dhirota »

smacl wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 6:13 pm
JLarson wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 4:59 pmI don't agree with the idea that's its not an issue because you can just do another overlapping scan. In my view and experience, it is often better to reduce the number of scans to a minimum while maintaining the required coverage and densities. Every additional setup can raise issues other than just the time required: every setup has potential for error to creep into your data set (vibration, bad setup, registration error, etc.), adds data file size, time to download / process, etc. I also like to keep things simple for my field folks. The fewer things they need to think about when selecting scan locations the better. It's easier for them to get trained up, and there isn't as much of a question in the field that they have the needed coverage.
Agreed. One of the biggest headaches for many users with the release of the RTC360 was the hugely increased file sizes. If you're going to use extra setups to compensate for limits in the FOV you really need something like the NavVis post processing that rationalizes the total number of points by surface area. I do still like the look of this scanner though and rate Riegl kit very highly.
I am a firm believer in simplification to reduce errors for everyone. Sometimes more scans are better than missing something after you returned to the office, especially if you can scan in a shorter amount of time without targets and using RTK for registration. Not all applications, software, equipment, and processing will work correctly all the time.

I am not sure why there are "headaches" from users about files sizes from their scans. I have not heard/seen these comments from the many NavVis users that I personally know, considering that we own a NavVis M6 and VLX, which have scans, images, and other file types as part of the database. The NavVis raw files are larger than their finished files which have the dynamic objects and repetitive points removed (we normally post-process to a 5mm grid). There have been positive comments from LSF viewers on the color and clarity of NavVis finished scan files.

For those that may not have seen the recent LSF discussion on AMD Ryzen 9 Zen 4 7950X build:

https://www.laserscanningforum.com/foru ... 00#p102400

Because of the limited time for presentation and the limited number Riegl users displaying their post-processing scan information on the LSF, there might be insufficient information to communicate what is being accomplished. Since we also have a Reigl VZ400i, I thought that the table listed below would try to illustrate RiScan Pro's v2.15 post-processing process similar to NavVis's SiteMaker's in removal of dynamic object points (627M remained from the original 1B raw) and repetitive point removal to a 5mm point cloud without spending much time describing it. Unless you are using both systems, it might not be obvious on the similarities of the two post-processing systems (the vendors will probably disagree with me).

RiSCAN PRO.jpg

The RAID6 column used the data residing on a RAID6 8X12TB Seagate, and the SS 980 PRO column for data residing on the 2TB boot disk (both columns are in seconds)

QMC2.jpg

(see 627M static points remaining)
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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Re: RIEGL VZ600i

Post by Kruse »

smacl wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 6:13 pm Agreed. One of the biggest headaches for many users with the release of the RTC360 was the hugely increased file sizes. If you're going to use extra setups to compensate for limits in the FOV you really need something like the NavVis post processing that rationalizes the total number of points by surface area. I do still like the look of this scanner though and rate Riegl kit very highly.
Not that this is the best time to bring this up, but being an RTC user, I did want to provide file sizes with current firmware since it has changed dramatically since launching years ago. These were indoor scans with some glass/curtain wall captured, but should give a pretty decent idea of typical sizes:
- Low Density Scan and Images - 274MB total - Imagery = 232MB & ~11M points
- Medium Density Scan and Images - 399MB Total - Imagery = 254MB & ~39M points
- High Density Scan and Images - 834MB Total - Imagery = 256MB & ~131M points
For outdoor scans, the imagery files are ususlly around 170Mb compared to ~245MB for interior scans.

I think this new Riegl scanner is quite the improvement and I love seeing what competitors offer! Now I'm hoping Leica takes some of this release into their own scanner updates! :lol: The Riegl cameras in line with the rotation vs the RTC's off axis cameras seems like such an obvious one design change they need to implement. This can lead to some annoying paralaxing issues that Register 360 can still struggle with when scanning really close to objects such as open stud walls and ceilings.

With the 30 second scan/imagery capture times by the Riegl, I'm curious what the time in between setups would take to get a secondary scan covering what was missed in the first? Riegl makes some kind of pivot mount allowing them to be turned sideways, right? If you kept the scanner in the same location and just reorientate it to be looking straight up, how long does that little operation take you think? Potentially might get closer to the RTC's scan time in that scenario.

Being in the Construction industry, a lot of the times, I'm needing to capture scans directly below MEPF systems to get what I need or due to losing my line of sight if I were to move locations. I don't always have the opportunity to just walk back 10-15 paces to then get what was missed from the 1st setup due to the Riegl's FOV, assuming I owned a Riegl :lol: . Either way, it looks impressive!
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Re: RIEGL VZ600i

Post by smacl »

dhirota wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 8:49 pmI am not sure why there are "headaches" from users about files sizes from their scans. I have not heard/seen these comments from the many NavVis users that I personally know, considering that we own a NavVis M6 and VLX, which have scans, images, and other file types as part of the database. The NavVis raw files are larger than their finished files which have the dynamic objects and repetitive points removed (we normally post-process to a 5mm grid). There have been positive comments from LSF viewers on the color and clarity of NavVis finished scan files.
I think you may have misunderstood me here. As I've written on a number of occasions, NavVis are ahead of the field here in that they've successfully addressed the scan size issue through rationalizing (as opposed to simply decimating) the point cloud is such a way as to remove the bloated size we see in some point clouds. My point was that other manufacturers should be applying similar techniques. With a static scanner capturing millions of points per second we see a massive number of redundant points close to the setup position in order to get the desired density further away. Where these points are coplanar and not adjacent a change in the surface, most can be eliminated. Simply decimating by comparison removes points we'd like to keep. The NavVis solution goes further in terms of introducing extra calculated points further away to provide a uniform Cartesian density, where a TLS gives points at uniform horizontal and vertical angles and other mobile scanning systems give points at uniform angle and distance (assuming constant velocity). Given this new Riegl scanner can capture points at 2.2mhz it would clearly benefit from similar techniques to rationalize the density.

Edit: For an example of the 'headaches' relating to large data, see the following very recent thread. This seems to be a rather common theme over the past few years.
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Re: RIEGL VZ600i

Post by smacl »

Kruse wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 11:17 pmBeing in the Construction industry, a lot of the times, I'm needing to capture scans directly below MEPF systems to get what I need or due to losing my line of sight if I were to move locations. I don't always have the opportunity to just walk back 10-15 paces to then get what was missed from the 1st setup due to the Riegl's FOV, assuming I owned a Riegl :lol: . Either way, it looks impressive!
You can also get the issue, e.g. in tunneling and mining, where you need to capture a vertical shaft that doesn't have visibility other than from directly underneath it.
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Re: RIEGL VZ600i

Post by landmeterbeuckx »

I saw the kit yesterday and it is tempting for sure.
Much lighter
Smaller design
Battery case to charge 6 batteries
Pictures taken without external camera
L1 integrated, L1/L2 can be placed on top
....

30 second scans, can't beat that.
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