RTC360 no level compensator

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crullier
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RTC360 no level compensator

Post by crullier »

I had typed a whole post and then the forum kicked me off.

Let's try again...

when you learn that the RTC doesn't have a way to produce leveled scans it makes us wonder what are we paying for compared to the BLK we own, it just "faster" scans? I was under the impression that the whole idea of the RTC360 over any of the BLK's was going to be speed, better accuracy, more density(?), and with the VIZ better registration and no need for site control. But like I said above, if I have to shoot the targets to get a leveled scan, the VIZ goes out the window, doesn't it? and any speed gains in scanning are used on establishing control - not to mention hiring a surveyor with a robot.

It almost makes the BLK2GO a better deal, Those scans aren't going to be leveled anyway but you can cover a ton more SF with it.
Isn't the point of a laser scanner accurate data?

I am currently looking at some BLK360 scans with no control, and yeah they arent leveled.. but then that scanner was less than 20K.. so fine.
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Re: RTC360 no level compensator

Post by crullier »

I am interest to see what you guys thing, especially those who own a RTC360
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Re: RTC360 no level compensator

Post by VXGrid »

crullier wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:47 am I am interest to see what you guys thing, especially those who own a RTC360
I do not own a RTC, nor a BLK, but know a little bit about the accuracies and stuff they produce/can do.

In my opinion the question comes down to: What are you scanning and what are you going to do with the data?
If you are going to draw floorplans for rental apartments with scale 1:100, use a mobile mapping scanner,
if you need panoramas, high accuracy&high point density, use a RTC
if you have something in between go for the BLK.

Here some thoughts in no particular order:
  • The single point accuracy of the BLK is very much depending on the scanned distance (Of course distance is always counting in with some PPM, but with more expensive scanners the influence is smaller).
  • The distance one can measure differ.
  • Point density is a lot higher with the RTC (so point spacing on distant objects is a lot higher with the RTC
  • The camera is better (as far as I am been told).
  • Speed is not only: How long are you on site, but in addition: How long do you need to get that data from your device, Registered, and processed?
  • Control points should be taken for every major project.
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Re: RTC360 no level compensator

Post by VXGrid »

crullier wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:46 am I had typed a whole post and then the forum kicked me off.

Let's try again...
[...]
When logging in, click the "Remember me" button.

A habit I adapted, since I didn't do that at the beginning was using Ctrl+A Ctrl+C before clicking on "Preview" or "Submit", so my whole post was in the clipboard and I could just paste it in, after getting logged off.
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Re: RTC360 no level compensator

Post by MajorDomo »

Accuracy is relative to a specs. What is spec for me might be overkill for you or vice versa.

I get a lot of scans captured by a lot of different scanners.
And while I share my distaste of a lack of DAC on the RTC360, I can see why people like the scanner.
It's quick to scan large areas with good accuracy and good density, it's fast to register the data, It is quick at acquiring images, it's still small and lightweight.

I meshed a lot of scans done with BLK360 and it does not even compare. The returns are very inaccurate and that leads to noise, and some truly terrible registrations using either C2C or fiducials. But the killer for me is the download times, if you use it with some frequency, quickly all the money you saved buying the cheaper instrument will be eroded waiting to be able to use it's data.
My meshes looked sub-par no matter what.

I have not used the Trimble X7 yet, but on paper it seems like the middle ground that you are looking for perhaps? understands some semblance of level, not as fast as the RTC, not as slow as the BLK, priced in between as well...
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Re: RTC360 no level compensator

Post by Jamesrye »

I've used the RTC extensively now. You need the 'right environment' for the vis & cloud alignment to work. Even in some buildings, the mobile app wont correctly join scans - and it has to be correctly registered back in the office (recently, I have given up with on-site registration entirely). The lack of a level compensator is why we didn't buy one, you need a ton of independent survey control to really prove your accuracy - and you need it at the extents of your project - you really cannot have ANY sort of hanging leg with this instrument IMHO. And for multi-storey buildings, you need a spine of control to be established with a 'proper' survey instrument like a P40.

You also need a kick ass PC or laptop to cope with the huge data sizes. But the RTC is much more useful than the BLK, its way faster, the data is cleaner and it gets returns from dark surfaces. Data download is fast. The imagery is great. But - don't believe the hype around visual alignment and cloud registration or you will have troubles! Use targets, have redundancy and proper survey control.

Finally, Reg360 is much improved, but still - you will get a better alignment with Cyclone Core's C2C and its much easier to check for misalignment in CORE as well. This unfortunately adds processing time - moving from REG360 to CORE.

I've had a demo of the Trimble X7 and it could be a real game changer for some users I think. The problem I had is that the e.57 output wouldn't read into Cyclone correctly and the data was tilted - otherwise we'd have hired one for some projects that I've recently completed (we are Cyclone users and have invested in this software over the years). I know the Trimble X7 e.57 file is correct, because if I load it into other software then it is perfectly level!

FWIW, I find the Zeb Horizon to be much improved over the REVO and have been getting some nice results with that for lower spec building survey work.
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Re: RTC360 no level compensator

Post by virtuoso »

Leica released new update for Reg360. It finally has undo redo button, but also you can select plane in pointcloud (for instance floor) and make that to be reference for level so in theory you could level floor in that way. Haven't try that but just read release. we also encounted numerous times that floor wasn't leveled.
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Re: RTC360 no level compensator

Post by btylutki »

Jamesrye wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:01 am The problem I had is that the e.57 output wouldn't read into Cyclone correctly and the data was tilted - otherwise we'd have hired one for some projects that I've recently completed (we are Cyclone users and have invested in this software over the years). I know the Trimble X7 e.57 file is correct, because if I load it into other software then it is perfectly level!
Yes, I reported the issue to Leica long time ago but apparently they don't want to comply with E57 standard. 3D rotation information for each e57 are in the file header. Cyclone just omits this values at import.
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Re: RTC360 no level compensator

Post by Leandre Robitaille »

In my opinion people that purchased the RTC360 didn't do their homeworks and just got taken away by the amazing marketing leica did. Horrible picture, no compensator, large data files, propriatarie usb sticks. Yes it does 2million point per seconds, but at 120k$ cad (at launch) it was more expensive than 2 faro s70 scanners (about 50kcad at the time). You couldn't even use the 360 pictures at launch for the rtc360 until I think 1 year later lmao. Our companie just purchased more faro instead that have better pictures and a decent compensator(but I still wish it was more like the X7).
With 2 faro scanner that produce 2x 1million point per second,you can scan at similar speed than a rtc360 on site. Sphere targets are easy to move compared to leica chekerboards as they can be captured in any direction.

Just my 2 cent,I've ranted about the RTC a few times on this forum as it was such a fight in my company, everyone and their sister wanted to buy one and it took everything out of me to convince them not to.
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Re: RTC360 no level compensator

Post by pburrows145 »

Leandre Robitaille wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:22 am In my opinion people that purchased the RTC360 didn't do their homeworks and just got taken away by the amazing marketing leica did. Horrible picture, no compensator, large data files, propriatarie usb sticks. Yes it does 2million point per seconds, but at 120k$ cad (at launch) it was more expensive than 2 faro s70 scanners (about 50kcad at the time). You couldn't even use the 360 pictures at launch for the rtc360 until I think 1 year later lmao. Our companie just purchased more faro instead that have better pictures and a decent compensator(but I still wish it was more like the X7).
With 2 faro scanner that produce 2x 1million point per second,you can scan at similar speed than a rtc360 on site. Sphere targets are easy to move compared to leica chekerboards as they can be captured in any direction.

Just my 2 cent,I've ranted about the RTC a few times on this forum as it was such a fight in my company, everyone and their sister wanted to buy one and it took everything out of me to convince them not to.
You need to revisit the RTC360 IMHO - the latest update brings file sizes smaller than most manufacturers (try it and see), 5K images are lovely (and have been for some time), new "adaptive image resolution" linked to scan resolution is a lovely new feature, price is nowhere near you are stating (at least in Europe), plus you can buy RTC360 LT if price is a barrier. A lot of your claims (couldn't use images until 1 year after launch) are completely unsubstantiated. Sorry, had to pitch in here, because your statements are factually incorrect. Also, sphere targets can be used with Leica solutions also.. these are not FARO-specific.

Just my 2 cents...
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